I’m of the opinion that the moment domain should be rarely, if ever used. I also don’t believe that corporations should be permitted to buy congressional or local government votes to get them properties they want by eminent domain. If corporations want land, they should buy it. And if landowners are only willing to sell at super high prices, then the companies need to pay the asking price. And there’s always an asking price.
One thing I have noticed is a similarity in the behavior of Big Tech and Big Oil when defending their own development. They are too often silent about what actually creates the need for their products. Figures I have seen say only 15% of usage of datacenters is for AI, yet the opponents use AI as the boogeyman. Perhaps if Big Tech pointed out that all those phones ya'll carry around and never stop looking at are actually what is creating the need for datacenters (20-40% of usage), and also point out that all those streaming services that are replacing broadcast and cable television are another huge chunk, with the rest being used by industry for cloud services, people might realize they themselves have created this dragon that they seek to kill.
That's great flavor and thanks for adding it. Had not seen figures estimating the amount of data center capacity being used for things having nothing to do with AI.
So, just like hydrocarbon energy (which, at its essence is more or less what AI is, embedded from the server racks to the silicon in the chips and the electricity that powers it all) consumer choice drives most of this. The pictures of the protesters all looking at their cellphones kinda brings that home nicely I guess!
I commended you for publicly shining light on this proposed set of projects!
Not mentioned in it is the handmaiden of eminent domain, local zoning boards.
Working together, these two wield more abusive potential than most people can imagine. We should all be on the lookout for the same lies and misinformation hiding the truth about WHO benefits from these electricity and water wasters. Locals, assuming that tax revenues will build them a utopia, are the ones who will NOT benefit. And for what? The promise that AI will cure cancer? I call Bull****!
I’ve said it so many times now that others are beginning to say it and claim it as their own:
“AI will turn out being the biggest disappointment since ‘free love’ of the 1960s.”
Thanks, Kevin. In the case of QTS and Project Sail, the local zoning boards just approve the data center projects on private land, and no one is forcing those landowners to sell.
In these projects, its GA Power exercising eminent domain to build the high kV transmission lines to serve them. In that way, the local zoning boards can say they merely approved a private sector land development within their zoning laws. What GA Power had to do to serve the projects is "out of our hands!". Neat game.
We're agnostic. Perplexity AI saves us dozens of hours of research for each post. AI doesn't scare us and we're not afraid it's going to take over the world and be humanity's overlord. People who think that do not understand the impact the creative southern guerilla can have on infrastructure with water, fire, rifles and tannerite. Robots don't do well when submerged, and data centers with gaping holes in their roofs in thunderstorms fare no better.
But, take note of the fact that the Uniparty politician's reaction to data center sprawl is very telling. Neither Democrats or Republicans are roping it in and it could be one of those issues that causes members of both teams to realize that the people they're counting on to protect them might be more influenced by Big Tech than they realize. Think anti-war voters who voted for OMB kinda thing.
Understood on WHAT the zoning board has approved, and HOW they and GA Power now get to play ‘hide the salami.’ I’m just saying the board’s actions now create the incentives for GA Power to use eminent domain for the power lines. Nor do I fear AI. To the contrary, despite its benefits for your (or anyone else’s) research and writing, my comment is meant to reconcile the known HUGE costs and impacts on the electrical grid and aquifers. The corollary to my free love statement is my prediction that most of the computing power of these huge farms will be used for data collection and sale to marketing companies for the use of attempting to sell stuff to people who don’t need it and can’t afford it. Why is that a safe prediction? Because (just like your point made) THAT’S where the money is, not supporting your research and writing.
Yup. Worse, we suspect GA Power was negotiating behind the scenes with QTS and Project Sail developers well before they issued their 2025 IRP and the Ashley - Wansley Transmission line was pretty well baked even before the Coweta County commission approved Project Sail (3-2 vote).
I'm feeling confident I won't live long enough for the Overlords to take away my $.01/hour research assistant named Perplexity.
But you did cause me to wonder... Is my subscription actually effectively free by virtue of the cost of the avoided electricity by the AI pulling basic information so much faster than I could? Inquiring minds want to know.....
Excellent work, we have a man on the ground in Newnan that is deeply involved. There are a lot of claims of benefits and damages from each side of this issue. Right now in Monroe County GA we are experiencing massive data center proposals as well as a new combined cycle gas plant next to an existing gas turbine plant by Oglethorpe Power. (Across from The Meadows Gun Club and an under construction Buc-ees). And at the opposite corner a massive new Google Data Center to be constructed. Roots of Liberty had a great take on this data center development explosion yesterday, highly recommend it. As Andy stated above and as we hear often from Doomberg, “There are no real solutions, just trade offs “. A new 12 unit 1 million sq ft per until data center is being permitted and worked thru opposition just 2 miles from our place. Fortunately we have a larger acreage tract and are surrounded by other home owners in similar circumstances. It might not get us directly but it’s now in the neighborhood. Can’t wait for part 2. Thanks for the solid reporting.
Not really. There was a hearing in December but they only let 65 people in. There was a few hundred I’d guess. Mainly wanting to know about water and power. No answers were really given, it got 15 seconds on the morning news in Macon. There isn’t a tremendous amount of opposition except for the fact people are rightly concerned about the water consumption. We are all on well water and this massive aquifer covers a large part of middle GA. Some people with lower water requirements just have a bored well which is only 25-30 ft deep and collects its water from ground water in a big 24” wide “bored” well. It’s been a sneaky deal because the county annexed the tract slated for development off to the city of Forsyth, and everyone out here isn’t represented by the city. IMHO there was some insider strategic planning to get the annexing done prior to the announcement of the proposed data center. Most people (us included) are not opposed to it, just want to get the water usage details out in the open. It’s been tabled, re-zoned, tabled, then had some sneaky city council planning and development meetings on January 2nd. Just to make it difficult for most of us to keep up with. It’s back in the discussion/approval phase again, still not any clarity on the water issue. Just the way they like it, confusing.
Thanks for the writeup, very interesting. There is no obvious correct answer, only a question of the tradeoffs that will be acceptable to both sides. I imagine this winds up at USSC
But don't think this goes to SCOTUS. Georgia Power has the power of eminent domain as a quasi governmental entity under GA law and the way it has been couched as necessary for load growth in a state whose regulations require GA Power to services all loads more or less probably means it stays entirely in state. And after Kelo vs. New London, we view SCOTUS as having answered the question of "public use" (if SCOTUS said taking your home and giving it to a private developer was copasetic, then it's hard to see a high voltage transmission line as not meeting that bar.
What will be interesting is what happens when all the planned data centers don't get built but the electricity generation capacity to serve them does.
Kelo probably upset me more than any other decision quite frankly. I do like the private payment idea. It will certainly force the utilities to sharpen their pencils or make deals with the data center builders because otherwise it's a free option for the utilities. and that is never a good thing
I'm not saying some case like these couldn't make its way there, but I haven't asked the former team member who is tromping around the world in retirement and was one of America's top environmental lawyers for decades. (And I do not mean one like Steve Donziger or Erin Brokovich. I mean the opposite....).
I like the private payment idea a lot, but I'm not an economist. It seems logical to start from a premise like a development fee a real estate developer on a major project pays to tie in to existing water, sewer, road infrastructure. A developer usually can't regain any of that. But for a Georgia Power it logically seems easier. The private payment is a function (%) of the capacity/transmission build. In return, the data center developer gets a slightly reduced industrial rate for a period of 10 years (some derivation of that, different figures, etc.).
p.s. i was leading the environmental practice of a Fortune 500 professional services firm and had been the firm's Brownfield lead for several years when SCOTUS dropped the Kelo bomb. Like you, I was torqued. Dilapidated, abandoned 250 acre waterfront paper mill the state/feds had spent millions cleaning up black liquor and other bad stuff for the bankrupt owner taken by eminent domain then developed by the Port Authority for a new cargo terminal? God bless. People's homes given to a private, mixed use developer, sorry, SCOTUS got that wrong. (And now you make me wonder whether the present Court might take any such case that came before them just to overturn the 5-4 decision. )
I’m of the opinion that the moment domain should be rarely, if ever used. I also don’t believe that corporations should be permitted to buy congressional or local government votes to get them properties they want by eminent domain. If corporations want land, they should buy it. And if landowners are only willing to sell at super high prices, then the companies need to pay the asking price. And there’s always an asking price.
One thing I have noticed is a similarity in the behavior of Big Tech and Big Oil when defending their own development. They are too often silent about what actually creates the need for their products. Figures I have seen say only 15% of usage of datacenters is for AI, yet the opponents use AI as the boogeyman. Perhaps if Big Tech pointed out that all those phones ya'll carry around and never stop looking at are actually what is creating the need for datacenters (20-40% of usage), and also point out that all those streaming services that are replacing broadcast and cable television are another huge chunk, with the rest being used by industry for cloud services, people might realize they themselves have created this dragon that they seek to kill.
That's great flavor and thanks for adding it. Had not seen figures estimating the amount of data center capacity being used for things having nothing to do with AI.
So, just like hydrocarbon energy (which, at its essence is more or less what AI is, embedded from the server racks to the silicon in the chips and the electricity that powers it all) consumer choice drives most of this. The pictures of the protesters all looking at their cellphones kinda brings that home nicely I guess!
I commended you for publicly shining light on this proposed set of projects!
Not mentioned in it is the handmaiden of eminent domain, local zoning boards.
Working together, these two wield more abusive potential than most people can imagine. We should all be on the lookout for the same lies and misinformation hiding the truth about WHO benefits from these electricity and water wasters. Locals, assuming that tax revenues will build them a utopia, are the ones who will NOT benefit. And for what? The promise that AI will cure cancer? I call Bull****!
I’ve said it so many times now that others are beginning to say it and claim it as their own:
“AI will turn out being the biggest disappointment since ‘free love’ of the 1960s.”
Thanks, Kevin. In the case of QTS and Project Sail, the local zoning boards just approve the data center projects on private land, and no one is forcing those landowners to sell.
In these projects, its GA Power exercising eminent domain to build the high kV transmission lines to serve them. In that way, the local zoning boards can say they merely approved a private sector land development within their zoning laws. What GA Power had to do to serve the projects is "out of our hands!". Neat game.
We're agnostic. Perplexity AI saves us dozens of hours of research for each post. AI doesn't scare us and we're not afraid it's going to take over the world and be humanity's overlord. People who think that do not understand the impact the creative southern guerilla can have on infrastructure with water, fire, rifles and tannerite. Robots don't do well when submerged, and data centers with gaping holes in their roofs in thunderstorms fare no better.
But, take note of the fact that the Uniparty politician's reaction to data center sprawl is very telling. Neither Democrats or Republicans are roping it in and it could be one of those issues that causes members of both teams to realize that the people they're counting on to protect them might be more influenced by Big Tech than they realize. Think anti-war voters who voted for OMB kinda thing.
Understood on WHAT the zoning board has approved, and HOW they and GA Power now get to play ‘hide the salami.’ I’m just saying the board’s actions now create the incentives for GA Power to use eminent domain for the power lines. Nor do I fear AI. To the contrary, despite its benefits for your (or anyone else’s) research and writing, my comment is meant to reconcile the known HUGE costs and impacts on the electrical grid and aquifers. The corollary to my free love statement is my prediction that most of the computing power of these huge farms will be used for data collection and sale to marketing companies for the use of attempting to sell stuff to people who don’t need it and can’t afford it. Why is that a safe prediction? Because (just like your point made) THAT’S where the money is, not supporting your research and writing.
Yup. Worse, we suspect GA Power was negotiating behind the scenes with QTS and Project Sail developers well before they issued their 2025 IRP and the Ashley - Wansley Transmission line was pretty well baked even before the Coweta County commission approved Project Sail (3-2 vote).
I'm feeling confident I won't live long enough for the Overlords to take away my $.01/hour research assistant named Perplexity.
But you did cause me to wonder... Is my subscription actually effectively free by virtue of the cost of the avoided electricity by the AI pulling basic information so much faster than I could? Inquiring minds want to know.....
It’s the heroin model; the first few fixes are always cheap.
Oh they almost got me with their Compute service. I know…
Excellent work, we have a man on the ground in Newnan that is deeply involved. There are a lot of claims of benefits and damages from each side of this issue. Right now in Monroe County GA we are experiencing massive data center proposals as well as a new combined cycle gas plant next to an existing gas turbine plant by Oglethorpe Power. (Across from The Meadows Gun Club and an under construction Buc-ees). And at the opposite corner a massive new Google Data Center to be constructed. Roots of Liberty had a great take on this data center development explosion yesterday, highly recommend it. As Andy stated above and as we hear often from Doomberg, “There are no real solutions, just trade offs “. A new 12 unit 1 million sq ft per until data center is being permitted and worked thru opposition just 2 miles from our place. Fortunately we have a larger acreage tract and are surrounded by other home owners in similar circumstances. It might not get us directly but it’s now in the neighborhood. Can’t wait for part 2. Thanks for the solid reporting.
Thanks, Dave. You and Andy nailed the tradeoff.
Are the Hatfields (enviros) and the McCoys (local landowners) aligned fighting the Monroe project?
Not really. There was a hearing in December but they only let 65 people in. There was a few hundred I’d guess. Mainly wanting to know about water and power. No answers were really given, it got 15 seconds on the morning news in Macon. There isn’t a tremendous amount of opposition except for the fact people are rightly concerned about the water consumption. We are all on well water and this massive aquifer covers a large part of middle GA. Some people with lower water requirements just have a bored well which is only 25-30 ft deep and collects its water from ground water in a big 24” wide “bored” well. It’s been a sneaky deal because the county annexed the tract slated for development off to the city of Forsyth, and everyone out here isn’t represented by the city. IMHO there was some insider strategic planning to get the annexing done prior to the announcement of the proposed data center. Most people (us included) are not opposed to it, just want to get the water usage details out in the open. It’s been tabled, re-zoned, tabled, then had some sneaky city council planning and development meetings on January 2nd. Just to make it difficult for most of us to keep up with. It’s back in the discussion/approval phase again, still not any clarity on the water issue. Just the way they like it, confusing.
Hmmm.
I know for certain that you know what dog turds smell like, Dave. The last half of your comment and the transparency issue has that whiff.....
Yep
Thanks for the writeup, very interesting. There is no obvious correct answer, only a question of the tradeoffs that will be acceptable to both sides. I imagine this winds up at USSC
Bingo on tradeoffs.
But don't think this goes to SCOTUS. Georgia Power has the power of eminent domain as a quasi governmental entity under GA law and the way it has been couched as necessary for load growth in a state whose regulations require GA Power to services all loads more or less probably means it stays entirely in state. And after Kelo vs. New London, we view SCOTUS as having answered the question of "public use" (if SCOTUS said taking your home and giving it to a private developer was copasetic, then it's hard to see a high voltage transmission line as not meeting that bar.
What will be interesting is what happens when all the planned data centers don't get built but the electricity generation capacity to serve them does.
Kelo probably upset me more than any other decision quite frankly. I do like the private payment idea. It will certainly force the utilities to sharpen their pencils or make deals with the data center builders because otherwise it's a free option for the utilities. and that is never a good thing
I'm not saying some case like these couldn't make its way there, but I haven't asked the former team member who is tromping around the world in retirement and was one of America's top environmental lawyers for decades. (And I do not mean one like Steve Donziger or Erin Brokovich. I mean the opposite....).
I like the private payment idea a lot, but I'm not an economist. It seems logical to start from a premise like a development fee a real estate developer on a major project pays to tie in to existing water, sewer, road infrastructure. A developer usually can't regain any of that. But for a Georgia Power it logically seems easier. The private payment is a function (%) of the capacity/transmission build. In return, the data center developer gets a slightly reduced industrial rate for a period of 10 years (some derivation of that, different figures, etc.).
p.s. i was leading the environmental practice of a Fortune 500 professional services firm and had been the firm's Brownfield lead for several years when SCOTUS dropped the Kelo bomb. Like you, I was torqued. Dilapidated, abandoned 250 acre waterfront paper mill the state/feds had spent millions cleaning up black liquor and other bad stuff for the bankrupt owner taken by eminent domain then developed by the Port Authority for a new cargo terminal? God bless. People's homes given to a private, mixed use developer, sorry, SCOTUS got that wrong. (And now you make me wonder whether the present Court might take any such case that came before them just to overturn the 5-4 decision. )
I have to say, that thought has occurred to me as well, that they may take a case to overturn Kelo. I literally couldn't believe it after I read it.