There are no solutions only trade offs. Every industrial processes comes with side effects & unintended consequences. Shuffling the deck of the periodic table does not alleviate the the trade offs, it either delays, increases, or maintains the situation. Germany fucked around & found out quickly without natural gas many-if not all-of it's industrial capacity and that were "green" only contributed to poor air quality & emissions increases not only directly through there own increases, but globaly because of the increase in countries to supply their "green" demand. No such thing as a free lunch
"Shuffling the deck on the periodic table does not alleviate the tradeoffs."
Bingo.
We use FAFO in conversation. If we use the term "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" in an piece, that'll be a wink to you we're saying FAFO "diplomatically". ;)
An entirely new protocol around environmental sampling of soil and groundwater had to be developed b/c of PFAS. The teflon coating on most sample containers contains PFAS. Environmental consultants performing the field work had to be prohibited from bringing food and certain containers/products on to work sites.
Even before the latest EPA actions under the Safe Drinking Water Act and considering adding as a hazardous substance to Superfund (CERCLA), it's 2016 Health Advisory for PFAS was 70 parts per trillion. At that level, it's pretty easy to get a false positive from something contaminating a sample if one isn't careful.
Whether under SDWA or Superfund or other regulatory regime, groundwater remediation to below 70 ppt (some states passed cleanup standards already in 5-20 ppt range) is going to be difficult and costly to achieve. There are some promising innovations that could cut cost/time, as our industry has done for decades. But b/c of the strength of the carbon-fluorine bond, this one is different. Granular activated carbon works but is costly and slow.
Do not forget that in the U.S. (and likely in the EU), years of training on fire pads at airports with jet fuel with Class B aqueous film forming foam (AFFF) means that military bases (DoD) and municipal airports will have expensive groundwater cleanup problems. And taxpayers will foot that bill.
In the U.S., airport authorities were required to train with the stuff (read: set a junk aircraft part on fire with jet fuel, then hose it down with AFFF) by FAA regulation. Now, EPA will force remediation and the "we were forced to by your sister federal agency!" is not a get out of jail free card. Sovereign immunity for government for most bodily injury/property damage claims in the U.S., but not for environmental liability.
When the baby boomers, like me (1966), disappear from working life, the whole thing will start to slide. They are all people who are still working overtime in Germany with education, expertise and courage. There will be a bang all over Europe, and it will be a loud one😎
Yes, I know that, as a country with a high export quota (no sugar beet) it is still a mystery to me. I'm a mechanical and marine engineer and I'm somewhat desperate about the scientific knowledge of the Germans. So the downward slide continues, we have been living off the substance for at least 2 decades
Your birth rates have been well below replacement rates for about two decades, maybe more.
Have a sister in Berlin. She's two years younger than you. Have a hard time explaining the math to her, or what's happening there and how it relates to energy/environment/economics.
Great article...probably ahead of its time, and most likely to be ignored by the paparazzi ...but great article anyway.
It would seem the greenies now have their own "waste" problem. I just loved the qualifier on the PFAS fact sheet - "fluoropolymers do not pose a significant risk to human health or the
environment when used for their intended purposes." So long as the paint stays on the blade, it's OK. But what happens when we put it in the ground, above the water table, and let it sit there for million years? That is the very standard applied to spent fuel, and the very reason Yucca was denied.
Our local utility wants to put a solar farm on the site of a shuttered NPP. The site is immediately adjacent to and in the flood plain of a river that provides fresh water literally to millions of people. When I asked them for their studies on the contamination potential, I was told they didn't know because it was the developer's problem. Sweet Jesus!
Does anyone else appreciate the irony of this situation? Greenies claim nuclear's biggest drawback is what to do with its waste, then totally ignore the much larger waste stream (due to energy density) that will come from their stupid, worthless windmills and glass plates. Bryce is correct - unicorn farts and fairy dust.
Robert commonly uses the term "Crazy Town" on his podcast.
Our goal is to be part of the wrecking ball that demolishes Crazy Town. Esp. for the benefit of the 5+ billion not living anywhere close to our standards.
To the extent that it helps the advanced world see straight and do so while continuing to reach new heights itself benefits our own children, too, so much the better. And there's no shortage of motivation there, either.
Whether we end up with 2,000 subscribers of 2 million, our goal will never change.
Thanks. That's a question we have asked ourselves more broadly over decades as professionals in the environmental space. Even as we cleaned up industrial nightmares from first half of the 20th century.
Fluorinated gases are wonderful, we need to manufacture them on Mars by the tens of thousands of tons. SF6 has a GHG potential 30,000X that of CO2. Easily tip Mars into a runaway Global Warming state causing the temperature to rise sufficiently to cause oceans, lakes and rivers to be widespread on the Martian surface, bring the atmospheric pressure up to about 1/2 that of the Earth's so colonists will no longer need pressure suits, just breathing apparatus. With all that CO2 plant food in the atmosphere, bacteria and plant life can flourish on Mars, setting the stage for a breathable atmosphere.
A dead World, brought to life. The greatest achievement in the history of human civilization. In fact the greatest event in the history of Earth Life since the Cambrian Explosion. You got to love those fluorocarbons. And CO2 - progenitors of life.
1. Gee, I wonder if there is a similar issue with respect to medical technologies and products? 2. Is anyone else skeptical about regulating compounds at the level of parts per trillion?
If the environmental left ever came up with two consistent logical thoughts in a row its likely they would die from the effort.
Here in Canada the federal government of radical extreme environmental left just got slapped down by the courts for trying to over reach and ban plastics as "toxic".
This is the same federal govt that just threw $400million into the pot to help the DOW net zero project in Ft Sask, AB to proceed, a project that will produce plastic.
As always, i wish i could make this up or say that i got this from the Babylon Bee but no, its a function of morons.
The are clearly in “control” of the “green” transition. I’m confident that Habeck will do everything he can. For example write another child book, because they are probably the only group who would still believe him.
Yes indeed, zero qualifications for the job, as usual. Just like Trudeau's energy minister, only qualifications were him being a former Greenpeacer. If they have a smart, experienced engineer in their caucus he may rise from the back bench to being Minister of Arts & Culture.
Loved the post. This will continue happening more and more and I am planning on bringing the popcorn and reveling in the greens repeatedly shooting each other. It will be fun to watch.
" Contributing to the problem in order to “fix” it is just an unfortunate consequence." I've been screaming about this for a while now and no one seems to want to acknowledge the flaws in their own arguments whether it be blanketing the fields in solar panels, covering earth and sea with wind turbines thus putting not just an eyesore but an ecological disruptor to multiple animal populations and human processes (like sleep for those living nearby to name 1), or the inane and hypocritical dirge to battery-fy everything despite the steep ecological cost (which is generally out of site out of mind for the screamers) and their fight to not put a lithium mine in their own backyard.
The call to arms to destroy nature in order to save nature and not have those calling see what they're actually asking for is equally humorous and infuriating
Good article. It should be noted that some of the these fluorocarbon materials are relatively inert solids. Teflon polymers and their derivatives are one example. The bad actors are the small molecules which can and do spread in the water table and leach out of products.
Thanks. Hysteria and abrogating science in climate were never going to be contained within that field.
The fluorocarbon tippet material we use in clear streams out west is a clear and present danger to fish gills, fins and stomachs. The "PFAS" in them? Not so much.
I came here to mention this. I work for a manufacturer that uses a fluoroplymer additive that is getting lumped in with PFAS for REACH and more restrictive regulations in the USA. Ours is a high MW fluoropolymer, and we’ve advocated to various regulators that it can’t cross various biological membranes and contaminate groundwater to no avail. If it’s several fluorines bonded to carbon it seems to get caught in the dragnet. Many customers want us to get ahead of the regulation and we have, but the new additives are clearly worse than the incumbent.
I’m curious if these chemicals in the article are more like the ones I work with.
Thanks for adding to the conversation. As yet, we have not seen good information on which specific compounds in the class relate to which specific alt energy applications.
Your comment that several F's bonded to C catches everything in the dragnet without discretion is spot on.
Fluorocarbon polymers are generally inert and safe and have no biological activity because of the strong chemical bonds. However, these polymer bonds can be broken if extreme high heat is applied, such as a Teflon cooking pan left on a burner.
It should be further noted that inert fluorocarbon polymer materials are used as membranes in batteries and fuel cells and the like. The polymers are safe inert materials.
OK, we qualify our response to your first comment above to note that it doesn't account for a meteor impact at the trout stream or nearby, should it result in 1,500 C temps. Pack out your fluorocarbon tippet material people!
Great article! Thank you so much for highlighting the absurd situation in Germany, and the strange ideas of EU bureaucrazy :-) to steer a complex industrial landscape.
Loved the phrase "this is another example of the “ready, shoot, aim” level of critical thinking commonly on display in many aspects of the “alternative energy transition” and a consequence of “leaders” failing to comprehend the most basic aspects of the world around them."
There are no solutions only trade offs. Every industrial processes comes with side effects & unintended consequences. Shuffling the deck of the periodic table does not alleviate the the trade offs, it either delays, increases, or maintains the situation. Germany fucked around & found out quickly without natural gas many-if not all-of it's industrial capacity and that were "green" only contributed to poor air quality & emissions increases not only directly through there own increases, but globaly because of the increase in countries to supply their "green" demand. No such thing as a free lunch
Your opening line has been used by many but it sits perfectly here - perhaps it's best deployment I've seen. Absolute belter👊
"Shuffling the deck on the periodic table does not alleviate the tradeoffs."
Bingo.
We use FAFO in conversation. If we use the term "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" in an piece, that'll be a wink to you we're saying FAFO "diplomatically". ;)
My advice ... never give a machine that measures part per trillion to someone that has not personal counted to a trillion out loud.
An entirely new protocol around environmental sampling of soil and groundwater had to be developed b/c of PFAS. The teflon coating on most sample containers contains PFAS. Environmental consultants performing the field work had to be prohibited from bringing food and certain containers/products on to work sites.
Even before the latest EPA actions under the Safe Drinking Water Act and considering adding as a hazardous substance to Superfund (CERCLA), it's 2016 Health Advisory for PFAS was 70 parts per trillion. At that level, it's pretty easy to get a false positive from something contaminating a sample if one isn't careful.
Whether under SDWA or Superfund or other regulatory regime, groundwater remediation to below 70 ppt (some states passed cleanup standards already in 5-20 ppt range) is going to be difficult and costly to achieve. There are some promising innovations that could cut cost/time, as our industry has done for decades. But b/c of the strength of the carbon-fluorine bond, this one is different. Granular activated carbon works but is costly and slow.
Do not forget that in the U.S. (and likely in the EU), years of training on fire pads at airports with jet fuel with Class B aqueous film forming foam (AFFF) means that military bases (DoD) and municipal airports will have expensive groundwater cleanup problems. And taxpayers will foot that bill.
In the U.S., airport authorities were required to train with the stuff (read: set a junk aircraft part on fire with jet fuel, then hose it down with AFFF) by FAA regulation. Now, EPA will force remediation and the "we were forced to by your sister federal agency!" is not a get out of jail free card. Sovereign immunity for government for most bodily injury/property damage claims in the U.S., but not for environmental liability.
When the baby boomers, like me (1966), disappear from working life, the whole thing will start to slide. They are all people who are still working overtime in Germany with education, expertise and courage. There will be a bang all over Europe, and it will be a loud one😎
Yes, I know that, as a country with a high export quota (no sugar beet) it is still a mystery to me. I'm a mechanical and marine engineer and I'm somewhat desperate about the scientific knowledge of the Germans. So the downward slide continues, we have been living off the substance for at least 2 decades
Your birth rates have been well below replacement rates for about two decades, maybe more.
Have a sister in Berlin. She's two years younger than you. Have a hard time explaining the math to her, or what's happening there and how it relates to energy/environment/economics.
Excellent article showing again how those darned unintended consequences keep popping up their heads
Thanks!
Great article...probably ahead of its time, and most likely to be ignored by the paparazzi ...but great article anyway.
It would seem the greenies now have their own "waste" problem. I just loved the qualifier on the PFAS fact sheet - "fluoropolymers do not pose a significant risk to human health or the
environment when used for their intended purposes." So long as the paint stays on the blade, it's OK. But what happens when we put it in the ground, above the water table, and let it sit there for million years? That is the very standard applied to spent fuel, and the very reason Yucca was denied.
Our local utility wants to put a solar farm on the site of a shuttered NPP. The site is immediately adjacent to and in the flood plain of a river that provides fresh water literally to millions of people. When I asked them for their studies on the contamination potential, I was told they didn't know because it was the developer's problem. Sweet Jesus!
Does anyone else appreciate the irony of this situation? Greenies claim nuclear's biggest drawback is what to do with its waste, then totally ignore the much larger waste stream (due to energy density) that will come from their stupid, worthless windmills and glass plates. Bryce is correct - unicorn farts and fairy dust.
Thanks, all good points.
Robert commonly uses the term "Crazy Town" on his podcast.
Our goal is to be part of the wrecking ball that demolishes Crazy Town. Esp. for the benefit of the 5+ billion not living anywhere close to our standards.
To the extent that it helps the advanced world see straight and do so while continuing to reach new heights itself benefits our own children, too, so much the better. And there's no shortage of motivation there, either.
Whether we end up with 2,000 subscribers of 2 million, our goal will never change.
Great piece! I had no idea. Put this together with bird and bat slaughter and whale deaths and we might have a problem.
How is it possible that before we had fossil fuel and all these horrible substances, the life expectancy was 39?
Thanks. That's a question we have asked ourselves more broadly over decades as professionals in the environmental space. Even as we cleaned up industrial nightmares from first half of the 20th century.
I just want to formally thank fossil fuel and hideously harmful chemicals for the additional 50 years of life! It's been great so far.
Fluorinated gases are wonderful, we need to manufacture them on Mars by the tens of thousands of tons. SF6 has a GHG potential 30,000X that of CO2. Easily tip Mars into a runaway Global Warming state causing the temperature to rise sufficiently to cause oceans, lakes and rivers to be widespread on the Martian surface, bring the atmospheric pressure up to about 1/2 that of the Earth's so colonists will no longer need pressure suits, just breathing apparatus. With all that CO2 plant food in the atmosphere, bacteria and plant life can flourish on Mars, setting the stage for a breathable atmosphere.
A dead World, brought to life. The greatest achievement in the history of human civilization. In fact the greatest event in the history of Earth Life since the Cambrian Explosion. You got to love those fluorocarbons. And CO2 - progenitors of life.
You probably shouldn't give Elon's plan to colonize Mars away on our Substack. Just sayin'. Powerful guy......
1. Gee, I wonder if there is a similar issue with respect to medical technologies and products? 2. Is anyone else skeptical about regulating compounds at the level of parts per trillion?
Since you asked (and listed part of the answer in gest.....) ,per Annex G of the proposal:
"Consultations have been held on specific PFAS uses"
Here is the list of industries with whom the proponents of the ban proposal consulted. It's a good general list of where the stuff is found:
-Manufacture and import
-Textiles, upholstery, leather,
apparel and carpets (TULAC)
-Food contact materials and
packaging
-Metal plating and manufacture
of metal products
-Consumer mixtures
-Cosmetics
-Ski waxes
-HVAC (heat/ac) and other applications
of fluorinated gases
-Medical devices and medicinal
products
-Electronics, semiconductor
and energy
-Construction products
-Lubricants
-Petroleum and mining
-Waste
This is simply an attempt to apply LNT theory to plastic, as it was so successful in wrecking the nuclear industry.
Now that's an interesting angle we had not thought of!
If the environmental left ever came up with two consistent logical thoughts in a row its likely they would die from the effort.
Here in Canada the federal government of radical extreme environmental left just got slapped down by the courts for trying to over reach and ban plastics as "toxic".
This is the same federal govt that just threw $400million into the pot to help the DOW net zero project in Ft Sask, AB to proceed, a project that will produce plastic.
As always, i wish i could make this up or say that i got this from the Babylon Bee but no, its a function of morons.
We prefer the term Charlaticians but hey.... ;)
👍
The are clearly in “control” of the “green” transition. I’m confident that Habeck will do everything he can. For example write another child book, because they are probably the only group who would still believe him.
From a song, 1969:
"It's too late....
She's gone too far.....
She's lost the sun.....
She's come undone....."
Yes indeed, zero qualifications for the job, as usual. Just like Trudeau's energy minister, only qualifications were him being a former Greenpeacer. If they have a smart, experienced engineer in their caucus he may rise from the back bench to being Minister of Arts & Culture.
We recently listened to him on the Columbia Energy Exchange. > https://www.energypolicy.columbia.edu/canadas-energy-and-climate-ambitions/
(Yeah, we listen to this kinda stuff so our loyal subscribers like you don't have to. Imagine when we retire soon and have more time.....)
Yikes!
Hahaha :-D
Loved the post. This will continue happening more and more and I am planning on bringing the popcorn and reveling in the greens repeatedly shooting each other. It will be fun to watch.
Thank you.
" Contributing to the problem in order to “fix” it is just an unfortunate consequence." I've been screaming about this for a while now and no one seems to want to acknowledge the flaws in their own arguments whether it be blanketing the fields in solar panels, covering earth and sea with wind turbines thus putting not just an eyesore but an ecological disruptor to multiple animal populations and human processes (like sleep for those living nearby to name 1), or the inane and hypocritical dirge to battery-fy everything despite the steep ecological cost (which is generally out of site out of mind for the screamers) and their fight to not put a lithium mine in their own backyard.
The call to arms to destroy nature in order to save nature and not have those calling see what they're actually asking for is equally humorous and infuriating
1) Do not scream in the forest
2) Come here, scream all you want
3) Instead of screaming, share our posts (and Doomberg's, Robert Bryce's, Roger Pielke, Jr.'s, etc.)
Great article to read before getting the day started. If you think the government identified problem is bad, wait until you hear their solution.
Thanks!
Good article. It should be noted that some of the these fluorocarbon materials are relatively inert solids. Teflon polymers and their derivatives are one example. The bad actors are the small molecules which can and do spread in the water table and leach out of products.
Thanks. Hysteria and abrogating science in climate were never going to be contained within that field.
The fluorocarbon tippet material we use in clear streams out west is a clear and present danger to fish gills, fins and stomachs. The "PFAS" in them? Not so much.
I came here to mention this. I work for a manufacturer that uses a fluoroplymer additive that is getting lumped in with PFAS for REACH and more restrictive regulations in the USA. Ours is a high MW fluoropolymer, and we’ve advocated to various regulators that it can’t cross various biological membranes and contaminate groundwater to no avail. If it’s several fluorines bonded to carbon it seems to get caught in the dragnet. Many customers want us to get ahead of the regulation and we have, but the new additives are clearly worse than the incumbent.
I’m curious if these chemicals in the article are more like the ones I work with.
Thanks for adding to the conversation. As yet, we have not seen good information on which specific compounds in the class relate to which specific alt energy applications.
Your comment that several F's bonded to C catches everything in the dragnet without discretion is spot on.
Great point.
Fluorocarbon polymers are generally inert and safe and have no biological activity because of the strong chemical bonds. However, these polymer bonds can be broken if extreme high heat is applied, such as a Teflon cooking pan left on a burner.
It should be further noted that inert fluorocarbon polymer materials are used as membranes in batteries and fuel cells and the like. The polymers are safe inert materials.
OK, we qualify our response to your first comment above to note that it doesn't account for a meteor impact at the trout stream or nearby, should it result in 1,500 C temps. Pack out your fluorocarbon tippet material people!
Great article! Thank you so much for highlighting the absurd situation in Germany, and the strange ideas of EU bureaucrazy :-) to steer a complex industrial landscape.
Loved the phrase "this is another example of the “ready, shoot, aim” level of critical thinking commonly on display in many aspects of the “alternative energy transition” and a consequence of “leaders” failing to comprehend the most basic aspects of the world around them."
Thanks you. We have a family member in Berlin, not attuned to the situation. Yet.